<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Religion and state secularization</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2012/02/02/religion-and-state-secularization/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2012/02/02/religion-and-state-secularization/</link>
	<description>Secularism, religion, and the public sphere</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 16 May 2013 19:41:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	
	<item>
		<title>By: Simon During</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2012/02/02/religion-and-state-secularization/comment-page-1/#comment-76391</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon During</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 01:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/?p=28842#comment-76391</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These are big questions! My main point is resonant with Ernst Bloch&#039;s Atheism in Christianity (1968). Christianity&#039;s promise today is political not spiritual or moral, and it can, and long has been, a home for atheism itself. Today, it is Christian atheism that makes Christianity available (at least in theory or hope) for a truth-based anti-liberal-capitalist politics. (I don&#039;t share Bloch&#039;s political aims and values though.)

As to whether &quot;the practices of science&quot; are antithetical to &quot;the practices of religion&quot;. No not necessarily I agree. But the scientific method produces knowledge that does, in my view, irreparably refute the propositional basis of both revealed and natural religion. That said, of course you can as a matter of fact be religious (ie. be a member of a church, accept Christian morality etc) without believing that religious doctrine is &quot;literally&quot; true. This is one form of Christian atheism, but not, for me, the most interesting form.  And it is not interesting because under current social conditions Christian morality (as far as I am concerned) is redundant.

That is also why in my view it is mistaken to believe that secularized societies have a &quot;motivational deficit&quot; which can be only be solved by translating religious practices/concepts into secular terms.  Most secularized societies that we know are capitalist societies and, as such and for Marxian reasons, they are not under our control. In a situation in which important social relations are effectively out of our hands, ethics of authenticity (a la Nietzsche or Sartre) or of lightness and mundaneity (a la camp and - as I read him - Raymond Roussel) or of truth-seeking (a la Leo Strauss) are more powerful and attractive than translated Christian ethics, which ultimately also serve to secure the system. So when I suggest that avowed atheists might take over the Churches, I&#039;m thinking of this merely as a way of loosening state sovereignty without succumbing to libertarianism or anarchism. But it&#039;s not practicable, obviously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are big questions! My main point is resonant with Ernst Bloch&#8217;s Atheism in Christianity (1968). Christianity&#8217;s promise today is political not spiritual or moral, and it can, and long has been, a home for atheism itself. Today, it is Christian atheism that makes Christianity available (at least in theory or hope) for a truth-based anti-liberal-capitalist politics. (I don&#8217;t share Bloch&#8217;s political aims and values though.)</p>
<p>As to whether &#8220;the practices of science&#8221; are antithetical to &#8220;the practices of religion&#8221;. No not necessarily I agree. But the scientific method produces knowledge that does, in my view, irreparably refute the propositional basis of both revealed and natural religion. That said, of course you can as a matter of fact be religious (ie. be a member of a church, accept Christian morality etc) without believing that religious doctrine is &#8220;literally&#8221; true. This is one form of Christian atheism, but not, for me, the most interesting form.  And it is not interesting because under current social conditions Christian morality (as far as I am concerned) is redundant.</p>
<p>That is also why in my view it is mistaken to believe that secularized societies have a &#8220;motivational deficit&#8221; which can be only be solved by translating religious practices/concepts into secular terms.  Most secularized societies that we know are capitalist societies and, as such and for Marxian reasons, they are not under our control. In a situation in which important social relations are effectively out of our hands, ethics of authenticity (a la Nietzsche or Sartre) or of lightness and mundaneity (a la camp and &#8211; as I read him &#8211; Raymond Roussel) or of truth-seeking (a la Leo Strauss) are more powerful and attractive than translated Christian ethics, which ultimately also serve to secure the system. So when I suggest that avowed atheists might take over the Churches, I&#8217;m thinking of this merely as a way of loosening state sovereignty without succumbing to libertarianism or anarchism. But it&#8217;s not practicable, obviously.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justin Neuman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2012/02/02/religion-and-state-secularization/comment-page-1/#comment-76327</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Neuman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/?p=28842#comment-76327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am convinced by your argument that the modern state has what you call “an indirect commitment to social secularization” through its commitment to “promoting national economic growth,” a goal it pursues through the advancement of science and technology.  “Pluralism and diversity do not apply there,” as you put it, and “education’s commitment to science and technology need not appeal to the ethical value of truth”—they are taken as obvious and necessary steps in the pursuit of recognizable social goods.  These are cogent and pertinent points.

But your argument seems to assume that religions are constitutively opposed to science and technology.  Granted, there are many examples where institutional religions have been and are the enemies of scientific inquiry.  Such a stance is common enough among those who profess to seek empirical truths about the world in the various texts they take to contain the literal word of God.  While some religious people and associations feel the validity of their religion challenged by technological development, many don’t see science as an “argument against religion’s validity claims.”  Is your argument dependent on an antithetical relationship between the practices of science and those of religion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am convinced by your argument that the modern state has what you call “an indirect commitment to social secularization” through its commitment to “promoting national economic growth,” a goal it pursues through the advancement of science and technology.  “Pluralism and diversity do not apply there,” as you put it, and “education’s commitment to science and technology need not appeal to the ethical value of truth”—they are taken as obvious and necessary steps in the pursuit of recognizable social goods.  These are cogent and pertinent points.</p>
<p>But your argument seems to assume that religions are constitutively opposed to science and technology.  Granted, there are many examples where institutional religions have been and are the enemies of scientific inquiry.  Such a stance is common enough among those who profess to seek empirical truths about the world in the various texts they take to contain the literal word of God.  While some religious people and associations feel the validity of their religion challenged by technological development, many don’t see science as an “argument against religion’s validity claims.”  Is your argument dependent on an antithetical relationship between the practices of science and those of religion?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Bennett</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2012/02/02/religion-and-state-secularization/comment-page-1/#comment-76303</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 08:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/?p=28842#comment-76303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is wrong with the politics of hope and imagination?! Your last paragraph is the most interesting one and deserves amplification. Whilst assimilating or absorbing the church from the inside doesn&#039;t seem a viable way of offering substantive, non-religious values and practices - this issue should be of primary concern. The moral motivational deficit characteristic of secularised cultures that Habermas and others have clearly outlined may only find a remedy when we are prepared to learn from and assimilate into secular life those aspects of religion (anamnesis, redemption, sin, ritual, etc) that are &#039;translatable&#039;. At the same time we might reconsider what psychological processes might enable us to identify with immanent secular universals that lack the pulling power of a personalised transcendent God. A sense as to how mythological narratives can be reflexive, secular and motivational might be a useful starting point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is wrong with the politics of hope and imagination?! Your last paragraph is the most interesting one and deserves amplification. Whilst assimilating or absorbing the church from the inside doesn&#8217;t seem a viable way of offering substantive, non-religious values and practices &#8211; this issue should be of primary concern. The moral motivational deficit characteristic of secularised cultures that Habermas and others have clearly outlined may only find a remedy when we are prepared to learn from and assimilate into secular life those aspects of religion (anamnesis, redemption, sin, ritual, etc) that are &#8216;translatable&#8217;. At the same time we might reconsider what psychological processes might enable us to identify with immanent secular universals that lack the pulling power of a personalised transcendent God. A sense as to how mythological narratives can be reflexive, secular and motivational might be a useful starting point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
